I am going to follow Elle's suit and do a rare, serious post on a political issue that's been bugging the hell out of me, and I feel like ranting about.
When Prop 8 actually passed in California, I honestly felt sick to my stomach. I could not believe that people could really vote to "Eliminate the right of same sex couples to marry." People voted to eliminate the rights of other human beings. It's disgusting.
What's even more disgusting are the narrow-minded, homophobic, and hypocritical arguments employed by the religious right against same-sex marriage.
For example (and this is a popular one), it would harm the institution of marriage. Let me translate this for you:
Your heterosexual marriage will somehow be less valid if we allow same sex couples the same rights.
That is just absurd. First of all, marriage is nothing more than a societal construct and tax shelter. It isn't some union ordained by god. In fact, it used to come with a dowry so that men could get some value out of having daughters - it was a business transaction! Furthermore, if anything is harmful to the "institution of marriage" it's the fact that Britney Spears can get married for 56 hours on some bender in Vegas to a guy with the same real name as George from Seinfeld.
Next, people like to say, "if we let a man marry a man or a woman marry a woman, what's next? Will I be able to marry my dog or my toaster?" My response to anyone who actually asked me that would as follows:
Sir/ma'am, the fact that it even crosses your mind to marry your dog or toaster makes me very concerned for you. Furthermore, I cannot believe you are equating a human being with a dog or toaster - and I don't give a crap what Leviticus says about it.
Finally, there is the argument about how it will lead to the degradation of the American family - because then same-sex couples will be able to more easily adopt unwanted children who will otherwise potentially live our the rest of their days in foster care or worse. Please, please homophobic religious conservatives, save the children from a loving set of parents who will provide for them and give them a real home! After all, how can anyone possibly be happy and healthy with 2 moms or 2 dads? It must be better for them to live in foster care or group homes.
It is also shocking to me on the prop 8 front that the two groups who helped pass this horrible proposition are two groups that not that long ago were persecuted with regard to marriage. African Americans voted in huge numbers to pass prop 8 - and it wasn't that long ago that anti-miscegenation laws were still on the books. And, of course, the LDS church threw insane amounts of money at this campaign. Mormons - who were also persecuted for their marriage practices - you know, polygamy? Wasn't that long ago in the grand scheme that Mormons were polygamists...
If religious conservatives don't want to allow same sex couples to get "married," then the state should get out of the f***ing marriage business. We all get domestic partnerships (with the same partner benefits and tax credits) or we all get marriage. I am sure there is some legal nuance I am getting wrong here, but didn't Brown v The Board of Education of Topeka Kansas tell us that the doctrine of separate but equal is inherently unequal?
If you live in DC and feel like I do about this issue, then I would like to encourage you to come out and show your support. There's a march Sunday starting at 11 am. Now, I avoided every single protest in my 4 years at Berkeley - so I am not some crazy, protesting, bleeding heart. But, I think it's important that people turn out and finally say it's time to get our heads out of our asses and give all of our citizens equal rights. This isn't about sexuality - it's about equality.
Something doesn't add up here. Republicans make up 31% of California's registered votes, African Americans make up less than 7% of it's citizenry. Prop 8 passed with 52%, and had 80% voter turnout, meaning you need 40% of eligible voters to pass Prop 8 (that it got 52% means 41.6% of eligible voters were for it).
ReplyDeleteAssuming every single eligible republican voted for Prop 8 (for the sake of argument we'll include in that the religious right), and that African Americans are registered to vote in the same proportion as everyone else and they all voted for Prop 8, that only gets you to 37ish percent. Where did the other 4ish% come from?
Democrats. Enlightened, tolerant, ethereal democrats stopped gay marriage in California. (Yeah sure maybe "independents" but how many California "independents" actually vote with conservatives? I've yet to meet one and I've been involved in California politics since I was 12. No joke.)
This becomes all the more stark when you begin to break down my assumptions. Not every republican voted (we know Republican turnout was down in '08 by as much as 2 points nationally and probably far lower in California), and not every republican voted for prop 8. I don't have the stats, but I'm willing to bet African Americans aren't registered in the same proportion as other demographics, and even they didn't ALL vote for it. For every one of these assumptions you break down, you have to pull more and more voters from the left into Prop 8's supporters.
I'm a Christian republican and I'm all for the state recognizing hetero marriage. When marriage from a state's standpoint becomes discriminatory, then everyone has to get out of the pool and we all get civil unions or whatever. "Marriage" can be recognized by your God and your church/community only, and I'm fine with that.
What lefty elites don't understand is just what a foreign concept that is to a vast majority of Americans. Prop 8 didn't ask people what they thought marriage should be, it asked what they thought marriage is in everyday routine. To most it's a silly question, as obvious as the sky's color. One man and one woman, hopefully for life. That is what passed Prop 8, not a caricature of religious conservative loudmouths.
I am not saying that is was Mormons and African Americans alone who passed the prop. My point is merely that among those populations, support for Prop 8 was overwhelming, and I find that interesting given each group's history.
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, gay marriage is an issue beyond California, and it is largely the right (and the religious right) who oppose it in the rest of the country. I am not saying all Democrats are for same sex unions, but they are also not the ones coming out with the arguments about the sanctity of marriage or the biblical definitions.
Dear 2 Bitches,
ReplyDeletePlease issue a spew warning before writing things like "Furthermore, if anything is harmful to the "institution of marriage" it's the fact that Britney Spears can get married for 56 hours on some bender in Vegas to a guy with the same real name as George from Seinfeld."
Diet Coke is very acidic and hurts like hell when it shoots out of my nose.
Thank you for your consideration.
Sincerely,
Death Wish
If democrats aren't relying on traditional values and views of marriage in their opposition to gay marriage, then what are they relying on when they vote it down time and again? Or, as is the case with our current super majority democrat congress, don't vote on it at all?
ReplyDeleteObama may not make as ludicrously extreme an argument as the Mormons do, but whatever his argument is, it's still based in the same value schema, and according to your characterization it's "narrow-minded, homophobic, and hypocritical." Again, that is what passed Prop 8, not a caricature of religious conservative loudmouths.
I will be there with you in spirit...in the meantime, I am moved back to CA to try and correct this terrible mistake the next time our insane proposition system gets equal marriage rights on the ballot...and hoping that the Supreme Court gets this one right.
ReplyDeleteThe bottom line is that the government needs to get out of marriage business. Everyone should be able to get a domestic partnership with an adult of their choosing, and then they can get married within any religious institution that decides to include them.
By the way, I bet the Governator is kicking himself because granting the right for same-sex couples to wed in CA would've probably help avoid the terrible budget crisis with all the tourism, catering, etc. income that a surge in fantastic wedding celebrations would've generated. Stupid, stupid voters.
Case in point:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/12/nbc-reporter-obama-white_n_317081.html
i've been watching this post for a little while, but that HuffPo link forced me to give in and comment.
ReplyDeletethe article about the "Obama adviser" slamming gay activists is about as useless and redundant as everything else that comes from that site.
is anyone in this country surprised that politicos say different things behind closed doors than they do on television? i doubt it.
honestly, both of the two major parties hold relatively conservative values (especially compared to the options Europeans have when they go to the polls).
so even if democrats voted for prop 8 in droves, Tami's still justified in characterizing the positions of most prop 8 supporters as "narrow-minded, homophobic, and hypocritical." being a registered democrat doesn't immunize anyone from bigotry.
as for her statement that these arguments are being made by the religious right... well, aren't they? "religious conservative loudmouths" might not be solely responsible for the passage of prop 8, but they do brag the most.
I just wanted to clarify, that the black community did not "overwhelming" support Prop. 8. Black religious people voted for Prop. 8. "Party identification, age, religiosity and political view had much bigger effects than race, gender or having gay and lesbian family and friends," Exit polls found that 70 percent of black voters backed Prop. 8, but an analysis of precinct-level voting data suggested that African American support for Prop. 8 was more likely about 58 percent. Much of that can be attributed to the strong religious tradition in the black community, where 57 percent of African American voters attend church at least once a week, compared with 42 percent of Californians overall. Moreover, black folks only make up 7% of California as some one pointed out earlier, calculating for an 80% turnout rate and a 58% "for Prop 8" we are talking about a little more than 3% of the vote. Why is it easier to blame the passage of Prop 8 on the black community than address the truth of Prop 8 in California? Prop 8 passed because of homophobia, blatant lies and fear mongering and a campaign that was not as effective as it should have been. I'm glad that you are asking folks to support what is one of the biggest civil rights issues of our time but please don't bash the black community especially because it is a huge misconception.
ReplyDeleteRead more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/01/06/BANB154OS1.DTL#ixzz0U1WXWsUL
I think SmashPooh brings up a really interesting point that political and religious affiliation had more to do with prop 8 support than race or "having gay and lesbian family and friends."
ReplyDeletethere was a study conducted a couple of years ago that suggested that people who identify as liberal or conservative might be different from one another on a neurological level.
http://www.latimes.com/news/obituaries/la-sci-politics10sep10,0,2687256.story
if these findings hold, it might shed light on why having a well-loved gay daughter might not make you any more likely to support same-sex marriage.
also, that article is not nearly as offensive (to science or conservatives) as i expected. even though it's from the LA times.
SP--It's a point well taken. The fact that the exit poll numbers are still flying around out there and are being quoted in news articles, etc. is indicative of a problem all on it's own.
ReplyDeleteI think you're absolutely correct that race is a spurious correlation to the actual associated between religion and one's opinion on Prop 8. That said, I don't think that Tami was pinning the passage of Prop 8 entirely on the black community, nor was she trying to bash that community. Rather, I think she was expressing surprise that experience with oppression and discrimination didn't override religion in determining voting behavior on Prop 8. It surprises me too.
SCC, I temporarily relinquish my duties to spur with WHG to you. I need a break and you do it so well.
Yes, it is offensive to say that conservatives are mentally deficient compared to liberals. Honestly, how do you not see that.
ReplyDeleteThat has got to be some of the most self-congratulatory pseudo-scientific bullshit I’ve ever read. There is absolutely no link presented between making a snap decision based on breaking an arbitrary habit and the formation of political ideology, to say nothing of actual voting behavior. Also, there is no reason to believe that liberals aren’t as ideologically reflexive as conservatives. Political ideology is a complicated psychological schema that takes years to develop and yes you do get extremists on both sides that don’t like to entertain thoughts outside their box. Don’t believe me? Look at how many people insist, despite all the evidence, that W bombed New Orleans’ levies or was behind 9/11. They ain’t conservative, and are about the same number of people who think Obama isn’t a citizen.
Extremists don’t define any ideology. How you can think so here and be opposed to racial profiling is beyond me. I’d bet serious money that had exit pollers asked pro-Prop 8ers if they believed letting gays marry would allow people to divorce their dogs and marry their toasters a vast vast majority—liberal or conservative—would have answered with “Naw, I just think marriage is marriage.”
I agree that using exit polls vs. precinct data vis-à-vis African Americans is silly, but there still it affirms my point. If African Americans were split to any appreciable degree then you have to pull even MORE support for prop 8 from white liberals. At some point you have to see that conservatives and liberals that voted together on prop 8 have more in common with each other than they do with the extreme right, and that conflating the extreme right with mainstream conservatives is as bigoted as it is silly to conflate the extreme right with mainstream liberals.
All I’m saying is stop sanctimoniously giving your side a pass and calling my side retarded when they’re doing the same thing for the same reasons.
I wanted to clarify that I was not stating that Tami believed or was even arguing that the black community was the cause of the passage of Prop. 8, but I think her comments brought to my mind the issues surrounding race and gay marriage. Especially when the initial exit polling was done, at least where I live, there was a lot of accusations that weren't based on fact. And although I agree with Elle's comments that many people were surprised that "oppression is oppression" sentiment was not more pervasive, throughout history people we have seen the same tunnel vision when it comes to fighting for rights. Also I hope we don't pick the black community as an easy target because if we were to play the blame game, the blame definitely belongs somewhere else. Mostly the lessons that I hope we take away from Prop. 8 is the fact that we need to be more proactive in this fight. A lot of people believed that "This is California, there is no way we can loose" and obviously that was false. There is a ton of work to be done and I hope our generation will not just be excited by "hope" and "change" but will be motivated to do the work it takes to change the status quo.
ReplyDeleteWHG.
ReplyDeletei did not call mainstream or extreme conservatives retarded, because i don't feel that way. no one has used that word except for you.
i'm sorry if i've given you the impression i think conservatives are intellectually inferior to liberals. that's truly not the case. but please don't put words in anyone's mouth.
as for the article, i'm sorry for that too. as a science journalist myself, i am used to filtering out the obnoxiously definitive tone taken by some reporters when talking about richly nuanced scientific findings.
i should have linked you to the study itself:
http://74.125.155.132/scholar?q=cache:1H2bCV4IYNQJ:scholar.google.com/+David+Amodio&hl=en
but let's be clear. the findings themselves are not offensive. nor are they pseudo-scientific.
you are right that extremists do not define the larger social group they belong to. the study acknowledges this.
the participants were asked to identify their political orientation (not ideology) along a 5-point scale.
this scale has been shown in previous studies to account for political variants in 85% of the voting population. that is accurate for the purposes of this study.
i will assume your statement about the unscientific and tenuous nature of the study's findings is the fault of a hastily-written LA Times article, and not your ignorance of cognitive neuroscience.
the study showed that along a broad spectrum, there is a strong correlation between political orientation and cognitive style. it did not further suggest that there is a causal link between the two.
therefore, you can justifiably make the argument that the cognitive styles of the participants do not solely affect their political orientation, but other aspects of their lives as well.
you could also note (as the article does) that a participants' cognitive styles are not the only factor in determining their political orientations.
but in light of this study, i personally think you'd have a hard time arguing the two couldn't possibly be related.
WHG, you can find fault in the study's findings or conclusions if you like. but to call a regulated, peer-reviewed study "pseduo-science" requires that you present more proof than your mere disagreement.
as far as the study finding conservatives "mentally deficient," that, too, i will chalk up to a poor media filter.
the study found that "on average conservatives show more structured and persistent cognitive styles, whereas liberals are more responsive to informational complexity, ambiguity and novelty."
if there is a negative value judgment being assigned to words like "structured" and "persistent," WHG, you are the one doing it.